Forum Activity for @ocean-daughter

Richard Krueger Psaltery

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Wow!  Looks like a psaltery fit for a king!  Or a queen! 

I have a bowed psaltery from Song of the Wood, which I have been known to play.  It is made with that beautiful red-purple wood (by my request).  I actually took a (virtual) class with Bill Schilling during the North Georgia Foothills Dulcimer Association virtual festival in November (NGFDA, a great organization and wonderful festival!). 

Bill is great, and the class was a lot of fun.  It was on playing rounds in minor keys.  I'm hoping to keep inspired to play my psaltery more.  I even tuned it before the class, for the first time since I got it....

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Definite revelations fretless instruments provide.

Another knowledge and skill accumulated on the quest for the perhaps unobtainable Noter Jedi, uh, hood : )

updated by @randy-adams: 02/07/24 02:58:26PM

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

That is so funny-"lower your standards",indeed!.Fretless banjo would be perfect because there are so many tonalities other than the piano scale you can draw on.I once studied classical violin for 3 years trying to upgrade my fiddling skills.I learned a lot,especially problem solving,but it took me 3 years to get back to normal...obsessive about tuning was one of the issues.It's very subjective depending on the culture.I've known blues guitarists who tune sharp or flat to the band in order to create an edge I guess.Some of my favourite recordings from the 30's are where the fiddler is playing what we now would call a minor key,the pianist(Cape Breton) is playing major.That said,the major/minor third dichotomy in trad players differs from player to player,tune to tune.I suppose a tuner could sort that out but using the ears and fingers would be the quickest way.. 

New instruments that I have no clue about!

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The frets and offset strings were what set me off and confused me! He gave me a standar 4 string dulcimer last year and I figured that one out fairly quickly but the fret lay out is different. I’m wondering if they are just additional half steps that an eppinete has vs a dulcimer? But I’m not expert in that!

I’ll take some time later to take some pictures of the other instruments he has made me, I have a few acoustics and electric guitars that I’ve had and played the heck out of over the years. The first one he built me cracked on the side and it spread all the way to the strap nut, I brought it to him to ask him to fix it and he said “sure bring it out to the shop”.

He then proceeded to cut the thing in half on his bandsaw and handed me a new dreadnaught he built me, has old growth Brazilian rose wood sides and back with a Sitka spruce top and that sucker stays in its case and gets wiped down after every play! (I was still mad and a bit traumatized seeing him cut my first guitar in half!)

 

Thanks for the info, from you and everyone! It’s been a busy week at work so sorry for the delay in response here. The bouzouki you mentioned, he told me the acoustic one is just a hybrid he made and set it as a 4 string banjo, and the electric one is a 5 string banjo.

Do you know what the tuning on the balalaiki would be?

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

So many interesting aspects to this subject. Culture is definitely a big one. But so is age, for me at least. 
I have a very precise ear for tuning. Not exactly what they call 'perfect pitch', but near to that. In my 40s, it used to drive me insane when my string or note (or someone else's string) was slightly off pitch. Now I'm almost 70 and I find I'm a little bit more laid back about little things like that. I know they say people get more picky or whatever as they get older, but honestly I've gotten a bit more lax in what I find tolerable. That said, I do actually think that taking up the fretless banjo helped me to lower my musical standards.  

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Dusty, I have always found the cultural aspect of pitch perception to be really fascinating. It's a pretty vast topic and really puts into perspective how nuanced the things that make music 'enjoyable' to people are. Even just the difference in sound between two temperaments is interesting. I tend to think being too attached to a certain set of exact pitches limits enjoyment of music. In a perfect world I could hear exactly how in tune I am, and still not mind if I'm out of tune. It seems like I have to compromise one for the other.
Nate

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Nate, this won't help answer your question at all, but you might find it as interesting as I do.  I am reading an ethnomusicology text, which stresses that in western culture, we tend to value pitch exactness. That is indeed what prompted your question here.  Like most of us, you try to get your notes as close to the exact pitch as possible.  But in certain other traditional cultures, that is considered ugly, and they aim for a shimmering or pulsing effect when the pitch of a note hovers around what you and I would consider the exact pitch.  Think of the way a sitar player uses tremolo, or the vocal stylings of Arabic music.  The text gives an extended example of Balinese gamelan, in which the tuning of the instruments themselves is intended to create that shimmering effect.

As I said, I find this really interesting, but it's not going to change my search for exact pitch.

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Grabbed this off FB...Golden Highway

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Good ? Nate. 

I've gone thru several stages of sour note acceptance - always trending toward more tolerance, with the dulcimer and my head. Here's where I'm at now.  5ths and unisons have to be lined up as sweet as possible. That's it.

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Something I am usually doing is tuning for the first fret. I own some dulcimers that have a little high nut and therefore tuning for the opened strings results in slightly sharp note at the first fret around +5 cents. This method can work great but I admit it is really a trial and error process. 

Another thing which I am doing is using the same method to position the saddle. Often the saddle is positioned so that the pitch at the 7th fret is in tune with the 2nd harmonic. While this works great for dulcimers having a very low action (particularly low nut), I have had better results with positioning my saddle comparing the tune at the 1st fret and the 8th fret. It seems to offer a good compromise with intonation accuracy along the fretboard and a pleasant sound when playing melody-chords song.

Having a compensated nut - which is sometimes achieved on some guitars -  would probably solve all this but I haven't seen one yet with such elaborated one. 

Another thing is the accuracy of the tuner. I have bought a fender piezzo tuner which has a margin error that makes it unusable for a precise tuning. I am using my phone with the Tuner app from piascore and I have found it to be much more reliable.

updated by @nicolas-fr: 02/05/24 07:14:21AM

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize how uncommon it is to use a tuner that measures in cents. I've tried a few types of tuners but eventually landed on my phone. The mic in a cell phone is very good quality. A few years ago I compared a snark, a d'addario, an offbrand one that came with an instrument, a strobe tuner built into an old fender amp, and my cellphone. I used a fancy mic plugged into my computer as the 'baseline' to compare them against.
The snark and strobe tuner both agreed I was 'in tune' once I was 5 cents off but didn't allow me to try to tune any closer. The d'addario and generic brand one actaully showed how many cents off I was, but seemed to have an accuracy issue and were a cent off from the true reading of my real mic. My cellphone seemed to completely agree with my real mic down to the cent, so that's what I use now.
The big thing that I learned from that process is that my ear cannot tell the difference. 5 cents off sounded exactly like 0 cents off every single time. I have gotten kind of fussy with getting it as close as possible, even though it makes no difference to my ear. That's why I was looking for some outside perspective.
Thanks all,
Nate

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I play traditional, usually in Ionian and I tune do-so-so by ear. 

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Tuning is such a big topic.I live in an area of high humidity...wood expands,contracts seasonally.Sometimes I have to tune my melody strings sharp or flat,depending on the time of year(in order to be in tune further up the neck).I'm a fiddle/guitar player...after using a tuner,I re-tune to what sounds right  to my ears.I.E.,if a song is in "G" on the guitar I'll play a C chord and a D chord.Certain fretted notes may be out of tune,so I go back to G and sharpen or flatten a few strings...just enough,so that when you play other chord shapes it's somewhat in tune and you don't notice the G chord being a bit out of tune....The fiddle is another ball game.After using a digital tuner for every string I have to retune because it doesn't ring out the way it should...What I've done for years now is to get a basic tone,usually "A" then use my ears and fingers to get to the maximum resonance,make the instrument sing.Playing with pipers reinforced that notion...they can spend a lot of time getting the pipes"humming"..depends on the reeds,the weather,etc.Not a digital tuner,laugh.

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Nate, I think most of us don't know how to answer this question.  We use electric tuners (A= 440, as Ken says), so we generally accept the tuner when it says we are on pitch.  Of course, those tuners are not all equally accurate, though the Peterson tuner that Robin mentions is supposed to be one of the best.  One of the issues with tuners is their display. Even if the mechanism inside can be trusted to 0.05 cents, the display may not be that accurate.  If there are 10 LED lights equally spaced between C# and D, well, you can do the math.  If there were 20 LED lights, the display would be twice as accurate, right? We often think about how easy or difficult those displays are to read, but few comment on the relationship between the display and the accuracy of the tuner in practice.

I have a couple of really accurate strobe tuners which I use at home, but when I'm out and about I trust a D'Addario violin tuner which I keep attached to my dulcimer. 

My own ear varies.  Sometimes it is very sensitive and I can hear very small imperfections in my tuning, even when the tuner says I'm in tune.  Those times are not enjoyable because I never like the sound of my own dulcimer.  But other times my ear is a bit "lazy" and anything close sounds good.  That is a much more enjoyable space to be because I can just strum away in blissful ignorance.

updated by @dusty: 02/03/24 12:49:19PM

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Ha !...absurd talent indeed. Jalan Crossland
Thank you for the share Nate.
Love the song too.
See reply in chat box.

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I usually try to tune "dead on" when I'm playing alone or with a group. This means I have to adjust the tuning after playing a while as the temperature changes in the room where I play most often. If I can get the needle on my tuner in the center for all three strings I'm happy. An addition to your question Nate "is to what standard do you tune?" I use A440 which our group uses. I think most orchestras these days use a standard of A442 and I've been reading that some groups are going up to A448 or in that neighborhood to "sweeten" the sound. Now having said all that, often when playing alone I'll just tune the dulcimer to itself. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I think repertoire and whether or not one plays alone make big differences in what is "good enough".  

For me, I use a Peterson tuner and Mark and I both try to be very much in tune with one another or we'll make our tunes even worse.     When I'm playing by myself, I like to be in tune with myself or it can drive me a little crazy.  

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Since I seldom play with others and I'm not haunted by perfect pitch or ADHD, as long as nothing is too sharp or flat, "in the vicinity of..." work for me. 

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey folks 

Id love some input on how close you get your tuning to perfect before calling it "good enough"

I personally try to tune within 3 cents of exactly on note,(3/100ths of a semitone) and I am curious what is 'normal/common'

Thanks for any input

Nate

updated by @nate: 02/03/24 12:06:46AM

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Jalan Crossland is an absurd talent 

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

 
Thank you for your offer I appreciate that. So far so good but if I have any questions I'll definitely take the opportunity to ask.
 
Those banjo-leles seem like a lot of fun. I just got everything I need to make myself a banjo drumhead, and a banjolele is going to be the first thing I try making.
 
That is very cool! I did not know his name, but I'm a big fan of Molly Tuttle with Golden Highway, which he is the banjo player for. Definitely an extremely talented and entertaining banjo player. There seem to be a lot of very talented banjo players coming out of the modern "folk punk" bluegrass scene. A few that come to mind are Billy Failing, Jalan Crossland, Matt Heckler and now, Kyle Tuttle

Nate
updated by @nate: 02/02/24 06:24:17PM

How do I create a new forum discussion?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hi Sandra. You can read this here discussion to leanr how to create a new discussion thread. Then, go to our For Sale/Wanted forum:
https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/for-saleinstruments-music-items-cds-wanted-to-buy

...and start your new thread about the dulcimer you are Wanting. Choose a title for your thread that lets folks know what it's about.  Thanks!

How do I create a new forum discussion?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Am looking for a mcspadden ginger , key of d,

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Matt is correct in his pointing out that raising the nut (or zero fret) has benefits in achieving the lowest overall action.  Someone has done the analysis to prove that raising it about 0.005 from dead flat allows for keeping the action lower at the saddle.  To that end, I use a zero fret that is about 0.005 higher than the jumbo frets on the rest of the fretboard.  One of the advantages of the bolt on neck that I use is that I can adjust the spacer under the zero fret to fine the action a few thousandths up or down from there as required during setup.  The rest of the fretboard is flat when the strings are not at tension.  Under tension the fretboard bows very slightly, perhaps simulating the curve that Dwain explained.

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks all for your generosity in sharing suggestions. Can't wait to get started!

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

At the risk on being a contrarian, I have had good success with keeping my dulcimer from going sharp as you go up the frets a different way that also helps with the bass buzzing problem.  Rather than focusing on the saddle height, I find adjusting the nut or zero fret slightly higher allows me to keep a more consistent and lower action across the fret board.  Yes, definitely, it sounds like your saddle is too high.  When you get that resolved, and if you are in the mood for even more fine tuning, try raising your nut by maybe 10% and see if you can adjust your saddle down about the same percent.  As with any adjustment, your mileage will vary.

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
This is very insightful I did not know about that feature. Thanks for the information,
Nate

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

Some builders do build flat fretboards. When there are as many frets as the dulcimer has, though, the problem of getting the lowest action becomes very much like that of designing auditorium seating.

Imagine an auditorium in which the seating floor is flat: even if everyone is the same height, people will have trouble seeing over the heads of those in the next row. And in the foremost rows (that cost the most to get), you begin to see less and less of the performers!

So the answer is to make the floor a long sweeping curved surface sloping gently down, each row a little lower than the one behind. That works well until about 2/3 down toward the stage: at that point the person in the next row are no longer the issue. Now the problem is that you can't see all of what's happening on-stage. So the floor has to start to rise so each row is a bit higher than the one before. Then each person can see everything on the stage.

So think of the string's "line of sight" as it is fretted at each fret, and design your fretboard so that, at each fret position, the height above the further frets is equal. If you're good at trigonometry you can solve the problem as one of the string forming a constant angle when fretted at each angle such that the sine of the angle is just a bit greater than the top of the next fret's crown. Since the distance between frets is exponential, that fretboard surface will be very interesting mathematically. (I've never done it mathematically. I prefer the heuristic method in instrument building, not analytics —except in the matter of setting frets in equal temperament).

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
Dwain, could you please explain this more, I was not aware of this. I have only built with flat fingerboards so I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by 'concave dish.'
Thanks
Nate
updated by @nate: 02/01/24 08:43:05PM

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

That's a great idea! just remember to replace the nut with a packing piece so it is level with the fingerboard before starting.

Every dulcimer will have its own fingerboard 'profile,' meaning a concave 'dish', though some makers prefer to build with a flat fingerboard, I hear.

For what it's worth, I set the nut height at .015" higher than the fret crown I'm using. That seems about right for the way I profile the fingerboard.

updated by @dwain-wilder: 02/01/24 08:14:05PM

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?

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Nicolas, on almost any device- a phone, laptop, desktop, or tablet... there are quick keyboard or 'tap' commands that allow one to zip right to the top or bottom of a page. You might find such shortcuts come in handy to get places more quickly.
Thanks!

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Three dimes seems like a TON of extra height by the nut. I hope that isn't due to warping or bowing.

If you have a nice straight edge on a metal yardstick or something like that, you could set it along the fretboard and observe if the straight edge touches all the frets, or if some of them are lower/higher. It is possible that some frets have risen slightly out of their slots and need to be 'tapped' back into place.

It can be helpful to check each fret with a tuner and note how out of tune each fret is. If the first couple of frets are the most out of tune, the issue is most likely your nut being too high. If the frets get more out of tune as you get closer to the octave, you most likely need to move or reduce the height of your bridge.

Once the frets are all level and the action is correct, you will most likely have to readjust your bridge placement anyway. 
Tune the string up to tension and get it exactly to the desired note. Use a tuner to compare the open string to the note at the 7th fret (octave) If the octave is  flat, the bridge needs to be moved *closer to the nut* If the octave is sharp, the bridge needs to be moved *away from the nut*

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Bob Stephens dulcimers are absurdly cool. I haven't had the privilege of playing one but the engineering is fascinating and the tone is definitely distinctive. They incorporate a lot of design elements that you won't find in any other instruments. They may look 'guitar-like' but they are very optimized dulcimers. Features like the floating neck and internal soundboard are examples of taking things that are distinctive about a dulcimer and pushing them further.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
I saw a courting dulcimer on this site years ago and haven't been able to find it since. It had fingerboards that did not extend to any edges of the box, and both pegboxes were on one side of the instrument. When I realized that the fingerboard doesnt need to go all the way to the box edges, and that the pegbox can be at either end of the strings, I made this dulcimer

updated by @nate: 02/01/24 05:50:11PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The dulcimer played by John in the video does not seem to be a courting dulcimer, like the one in the patent document. The fingerboards are both facing the same way, and don't seem to be laid out in a way that would be easy for two people to reach both fingerboards at once. The fact that it is only one octave is the main reason I am guessing that John's second fingerboard is for lower pitch notes. It would not need the second octave, since the higher notes are already on the other fretboard.

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Thank you for the clarification, at least I know there is nothing to “figure out” :)

the best of both worlds would indeed be the ability to switch between most recent to a kind of chronological order. 

what would be great is a “jump to bottom” option so that someone reading a post that already has a lot of replies would be able to quickly see the first message without having to scroll all the way down. 

i appreciate the huge task that administrating a forum like this one can be. Thanks again to everyone dedicating time to make this happen. 

have a good day everyone 

nicolas

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

Yes, I wasn't quite clear on that was I? The dime is place on the fret board. The nickel is placed on top of the fret.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song"

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

[/quote]. A set of number drills (1-60) is great for this, since each drill is a very small variant of its neighboring drills' diameter. So remove the bridge and substitute a number drill. [quote="Dwain Wilder"]

[/quote] 

Thanks for reminding me of this Dwain. I think you either mentioned this to me some other time or you wrote it somewhere and I forgot all about it. I think this is a very sensible way to adjust string height. I appreciate your sharing it again.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 02/01/24 08:29:28PM

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Can you specify when placing the dimes or nickels- the coins should be placed on top of the fret, right? (not on the wood of the fretboard surface between or next to the frets).

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@Bob-Stephens really does use a floating neck that does not come in contact with the soundboard.  His dulcimers also have a false bottom, so both top and bottom are free to vibrate. You can see some pictures here on his website and also in some of the pictures he has posted to FOTMD . He uses a metal rod that runs the length of the neck to enhance stability and reduce the need for excessive bracing of the soundboard.

He is a member here and has explained the evolution of his design principles elsewhere, so I won't go into more details (which I don't understand, honestly). One of those discussions is Floating Fretboards .

David Beede uses the same floating fretboard principle on his octave dulcimers.  (Or rather he did, until he stopped building.)  The fretboard is attached to the body with two or three metal dowels that drive sound vibrations directly into the sound chamber. I have one of these little dulcimers and am constantly amazed how much volume can emerge from such a small instrument. It's like the dulcimer version of Taylor's GS-Mini.  The "decoupled tailpiece" principle that David used on his full-size dulcimers is similar to a "discontinuous" fretboard to which Ken refers.

I have not yet played a dulcimer by Bob Stephens but I have a wooden, nylon-string dulcimer on order and will surely post a video or two after it arrives. (I have to specify "wooden" because he is now making dulcimers using 3-D printing for nearly everything but the top.)  I ordered one because I love the idea of a dulcimer specifically designed for nylon strings and look forward to exploring the different tonal possibilities of that instrument. Bob worked with Aaron O'Rourke on the nylon-string dulcimers and has been working with Butch Ross on the steel-string dulcimers. You can find them demonstrating those models on YouTube if you search for a moment or two. 

And here is Steve Eulberg demonstrating an earlier version of the nylon-string dulcimer .  When he turns the dulcimer on its side with the camera from above (1:17-1:27), you can see the space in between the neck and the soundboard.

updated by @dusty: 02/01/24 03:15:23PM